Dr. John Meis (00:01.794)
Hey everybody, welcome to this episode of The Double Your Production Podcast. I'm Dr. John Meis here with my partner, Wendy Briggs. Hey Wendy, how you doing?
Wendy Briggs (00:09.354)
I'm doing great. Good to be here with you today.
Dr. John Meis (00:11.616)
And we are excited to have Jay from Sunbit with us. Sunbit is a company that provides third-party financing for dental patients and all of the technology. We're going to dig into that quite a bit. All the technology that is necessary to make it extraordinarily easy for patients. So, Jay, welcome.
Jay (00:33.348)
Thank you for having me, Dr. John and Wendy. Great to be here for the second time. I must have done something right in the first visit..
Dr. John Meis (00:37.964)
That's right. Yeah, well, we think it's an important piece. I think it's that we think third party financing is an important piece of practice success. And I think it will be increasingly important as we have some economic turmoil. And there certainly is nobody has a crystal ball. Nobody knows if the economy is going to improve or or go go bad.
A lot of economists think that we're in for a rough ride. Some economists think we're great. And whether we're great, and whether the economy tanks or not, I still think this is a really valuable tool to help patients afford the care that they need.
Wendy Briggs (01:21.838)
I agree as well. I can tell you this, Jay, since we've had you on last time, there's been quite a bit of innovation in this space. So that's one of the reasons why we wanted to invite you back on and talk about some of the changes and some of it's been around a while. You've got a really great track record, but there's also been some really exciting things that I have seen from the outside looking in that you guys are doing as far as approval rates and all that. So we're excited to kind of dig in.
Jay (01:44.77)
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, it's been, it's an interesting, it's interesting time as Dr. John mentioned, it's the economy, it's up and down. A lot of people think one thing, a lot of people think another. I think there's a lot of, I think what a lot of people can agree upon is there's a lot of uncertainty. And when there's a lot of uncertainty, whether you have money in your pocket or you don't, you tend to want to hold on to more of what you do have.
Dr. John Meis (02:02.85)
You're right.
Jay (02:12.066)
And so we're seeing a lot of that in the past, I'd say four to five months, particularly since all the tariff discussions have been had. We see, you know, high FICO folks, lower FICO folks, lot more people are utilizing SunBit kind of on a comparative basis, just because of this uncertainty. Who wouldn't want to have more money in their pocket in this day and age? So we definitely see a lot of parallels to the economy right now.
Dr. John Meis (02:43.534)
Sure, and FICO is a way of measuring people's credit worthiness. A higher score means they're more likely to get financed by anybody. The lower the score, the more challenging it gets. And so when we think about the challenges that dental practices have in introducing third-party financing, that's one of them, isn't it? Is, are my patients going to get accepted? And if they aren't, I've got a really uncomfortable conversation. So walk us through what Sunbit does to help minimize the number of those interactions that you have, and how do you suggest people deal with it when there is a denial.
Jay (03:19.748)
Sure. Great question. So maybe I'll go back 10 or 15 years briefly, and then I'll kind of go up to today. So historically, there's been kind of these, I'll call them old bank financed products that approve only like the creme de la creme, like the 30, 40 % of folks that are very, very high credit folks, typically high credit worthiness, you know, typically what we like to say is like a score of like over 700. And those were the folks that got approved. So if you were at dental office and even if you wanted to offer financing and you did, most people don't fall into those buckets. So probably seven out of 10 folks get declined. So there's that fear, as you mentioned, of 'I know my patients need it, but seven out of 10 are going to get declined. So I'm going to kind of go and do what I normally do, which is not really offer it.'
And that's historically the story of patient financing, I would say the last 40 years, except for, I would say like the last seven, eight, nine years. What's happened since then, I know for us, is we're what we call full spectrum financing. We finance historically what people would call low FICO folks, and we go all the way up to super prime. So from folks that would typically get declined to folks that would get approved, and we approve nine out of 10. It's very much that people are creatures of habit, particularly as you guys know at the dental office. If you offer a solution in which seven out of 10 people get declined, you don't have a solution, you have a problem, right? You're not solving anything.
So what Sunbit does is we approve nine out of 10 people that walk through the door. So the offices in the doctor, whether it's a doctor, the hygienist, the treatment coordinators, feel very comfortable offering it consistently to every patient. And that's really the way to do it because most of these offices, as you know, have a ton of unscheduled treatment. People coming in, prescribed treatment, and the stats that we see based on surveys we've done based on the ADA and others, case acceptance is roughly 40 to 50 % at best. So there's a lot of people walking out the door no better than when they walked in and that doesn't really serve anyone. that's really the problem that we're addressing and what we solve.
Dr. John Meis (05:52.239)
So how can you provide financing for people that are a little riskier? Do you make up for those potential losses with higher interest rates or higher fees? Obviously, you have to account for that somehow. So how does Sunbit do that?
Jay (06:10.866)
That's a great question. So a lot of it is really our AI and machine learning backbone. So we, and again, it's buzzwords. I understand that, but I'm going to.
Dr. John Meis (06:16.139)
Here we go. No, I'm totally excited about seeing how companies are using AI to be more responsive to customers' needs. So I love this.
Jay (06:29.75)
Absolutely. And we've been at it for about eight or nine years now. And this is really hardcore machine learning. One of our co-founders is the head of machine learning at a very prestigious university, the Technion in Israel, did his postdoc at MIT. This is very serious machine learning techniques and knowledge. And so basically, there's a trade off, right?
We want to approve everyone, but as you mentioned, Dr. John, there's folks that are higher risk. We look at things a lot differently. So I'll give you an example. So most traditional, I'll call them the old style banks, what they look at is your ability to pay. Okay. What we look at is your willingness to pay. Now you may say, Jay, that's a bit nuanced.
But it's really the intent to pay rather than your ability to pay. And so what that does is we dive really, really deep into the behavior of that individual. So we never do a hard credit check, we do a soft inquiry. We take all this condensed data and we run it against our pretty sophisticated machine learning models. We're looking at about 3000 different pieces of data. Then essentially we extrapolate all that data, compare it to our model and it comes up with an answer. One, are you approved or not approved? And 90 % of the time you're approved. And then if you are approved, what's your approval amount? Everyone's approval amount will be different.
If you're considered to be, I'll call it equivalent high FICO, you might get approved for $18,000. If you're maybe a bit lower on the FICO scale, in which you're generally declined by everybody else, we may give you $2,000. Okay, and there might be a 5 % down payment or 10 % down payment, whatever it is. The idea is that we're calibrating the risk by enabling folks who normally wouldn't pay to give them every opportunity to pay based on their budget, which is very, very different than the market today.
Wendy Briggs (08:47.478)
Yeah, you we've done a series on AI and all the innovations that we're seeing in dentistry. And although for Sunbit, it's not really new to you. This is again, just proof in the pudding, if you will, that AI is making a difference and making an impact in dentistry in ways that we don't know. I'm guessing most of our listeners really had no idea the level at which Sunbit is using AI to their benefit. And I think this is wonderful. We've long talked about how, you know, patients, there's a big difference between patients who can't pay and patients who won't.
And we want to help serve the patients who can't. And outside financing is one of those ways that we do that. So we love all of the things that you're saying simply because we've seen it too. We've seen patients get approved that other companies probably wouldn't have approved. And even if it's a $2,000 limit to start, it's a start and they can do something. We can get them out of pain.
Dr. John Meis (09:38.798)
They can start getting healthier, yeah.
Jay (09:40.922)
Correct, correct. And the interesting thing is that the way we kind of, kind of our company culture, how we view things, you know, we are not numbers. Like most banks, these old school banks that have been around since 1960, they're still doing kind of their underwriting in the same manner. They see you and me as a number. You're a 620, you're a 680, you're a 750. It's not the case at all. Everyone is so unique in their credit history, in their behavior, in their intent, that we kind of create millions upon millions of models for these individuals to actually figure out, you know what, this person here who may have, who may be, I'll call them a subprime person who maybe has defaulted in the past, but we believe based on our data, this person can actually afford the crown that he's trying to buy right now that he's trying to complete his treatment acceptance.
So we look at that and we're proud of that because we see the data, we have millions upon millions of transactions and we can tell with a high level of predictability if that person is going to pay us or not. So we go much, much lower in terms of the credit spectrum than anybody else. And we're very proud of that because at the end of the day, we wanna help doctors and dentists, we wanna help them provide more access to care.
Dr. John, I mean, I'm sure probably the reason why you went to dental school was to help people. at the core, your core belief is trying to help people. And that's exactly what we're trying to do at Sunbit. But you can't help people if you're only improving 30%. That doesn't really help many people.
Dr. John Meis (11:17.291)
Absolutely. So now that we have all this AI technology and they're looking at all these data points and it sounds like this is going to take forever to get an answer, but I know that's not the truth. That's one of the things that my own practices have really been very excited about was the mechanics of how it works. So do you want to walk us through kind of if you were to design this process of a patient coming in, probably going to need treatment. What do we do before? What do we do during? What do we do after?
Jay (12:03.428)
Sure. So the main thing is every patient should be asked during the exam, there's some kind of treatment plan that's being built. And let's say there's five or six things on the treatment plan, it's $4,000. And at some point, there's gonna be a conversation. Usually it should be kind of before the treatment plan. Say, hey, we're gonna go through the treatment plan. You may see a big number there. But I just want to tell you, you don't have to pay everything today.
And then they'll calm down and they'll actually focus on what the dentist is actually showing them. So that's kind of the first thing. Then once the treatment plan has been presented, then typically they're asked, okay, how do you want to pay for this cash or credit? Or do you want to see your payments split into, you know, affordable monthly payments? And usually they'll say yes.
And at that point, we can qualify them with an iPad, takes literally, you've seen it Dr. John, it takes about 20 seconds. We take a person's state ID, ID, whether it's driver's license, state ID, et cetera, we scan it. And all we're doing by scanning it is just speeding up the process so you don't need paper and pencil. It basically extracts the person's name, address. That's basically name and address. The patient types in their phone number and their email. And just like that, within a tenth of a second, they get an answer. What they're approved for and they're given basically four to six different options in terms of how they want to pay. And what we're most proud of is that one, it's one thing if you're improving 90%, but it takes 15 minutes to do. That doesn't really, again, help anyone. It's quickness in the dental office, as you know, everyone's busy. So it's helping a ton of people, doing it super fast, keeping the flow going, and giving people different offers to choose from.
What we like to think, Burger King, have it your way? Same sort of thing. You want to pay a dollar down? Fantastic. You want to pay $100 down to reduce your monthly payments, that's great. You wanna pay it in six months, 12 months, 18 months, or 36 months. Whatever your budget is, we have a plan for you that fits. And then they would just choose the plan that they want. We would basically scan their debit card. Then we would then, once they approve the transaction, we would then take the down payment, which is usually a dollar. And then every month we would then take a debit from their checking account. It's as simple as that. And of course we give them notice that we're taking that automatic payment three days before, so everything is above board.
But that's basically the process. The approval process is maybe 20 seconds. To complete the transaction, it's maybe about two, two and a half minutes, something like that. But the power gets back into the hands of the patient, which is what we really, really love.
Wendy Briggs (15:11.596)
Yeah, it's amazing with our processes. We often teach a team driven case acceptance approach, right? And it's not uncommon for us to say, listen, I'm not the doctor, but my best guess is this is what we're looking at. Occasionally, there's more than one option, right? So we're like, hey, when the doctor comes in and takes a look at this tooth, would you prefer we have a short term or a long term solution here? And the patient often would look at me and say, well, gosh, I really want a long term solution, but I don't know if I can afford it.
Right. So right there, that's the first signal that the outside financing might be part of the conversation. It's amazing how early on if teams are paying attention and if they're following the approach that we teach them, patients will say, I would love that if I can afford it. Right. Just like you said, what fits into their budget. And so I think in some ways, you know, we probably don't even have to wait until the end of the appointment, until the exam. can start that ball rolling. Say, well, let's just take a quick minute here and see what if anything, you can get approved for, that might help you fit that comfortably into your budget.
And then when the doctor comes in, they already have that peace of mind of knowing, I've been approved up to $5,000 or whatever it may be. So if the pressure is off a little bit, I think that's another thing that we often find. Patients will give you clues, they'll make statements like that, they'll send buying signals ahead of time if we're paying attention for that. And so we love how seamlessly some bit fits into that flow.
Jay (16:23.822)
Right.
Wendy Briggs (16:38.702)
And we've seen it time and time again, patients will actually give you a sign, right, on what direction they're wanting to go.
Jay (16:47.386)
And one thing we have as well is that even before they get into the office, groups and individual offices we find send appointment reminder emails or texts. Sometimes three, four, five, because we all know no show rates are quite high. So what we coach is on those appointment reminder emails, usually they're using some kind of third party system to manage that. And usually what you can do is you can kind of edit those messages and say, 'Hey Bob, your appointment is 9 a.m. on Thursday,' but right below that say, we have affordable monthly payment options. Click here to learn more. Now, if they click on it, great. It takes them to the application. Again, 20 seconds. Bob is approved for $4,000 immediately a week before his appointment. So he feels very comfortable walking in. No show rates go down. And he knows that when he goes in, he's going to be taken care of.
On the flip side, if he doesn't click on the link, he still knows that there are affordable monthly plans available at the office. So you win either way. And because those employment reminders typically are a cadence of four or five, it gets repeated and repeated. So when they come in the office, they'll see our signage as well. And so they'll be able to see that, hey, this is an office that truly wants to provide access to care.
Dr. John Meis (18:05.197)
So you mentioned case acceptance rates being, if you're really good at it, 40 to 50%. And this for us is a key measure that we measure in our practices. We have very few practices at 50%, right? We've got a lot in the 20 to 30 range, some in the 30 to 40 range. But I would say we have very few clients that have really mastered using third party financing.
If you're in that category, if your practice is in that category, what kind of improvement in case acceptance do you think that we can get when we start to offer third party financing and do it in a very efficient and convenient way that can be done in the office at the right at the point at the point of attack really.
Jay (18:52.25)
Sure. So we did a survey, we have an annual kind of state of dental survey that Sunbit does every year, in which we survey about 1500 of our partners, both individual practices, group practices, single practices or group practices, we kind of have a nice cross section. And what we found is that those groups or practices that are using Sunbit increase case acceptance on average by 31%. And again, it's not
Dr. John Meis (19:20.747)
Okay, so. Well, I'm just going to say, so if we're at, let's just say 30 percent case acceptance and we improve that by 31 percent, right? So now we're at about 40. Let's just say, right. So now we have a 10 percent improvement. So what's 10 percent of your practice? You know, I mean, that's the jump that could happen. You know how difficult it is to try to grow 10 % any other way. This is just so simple.
Jay (19:56.091)
Right, there's no kind of fancy system that you have to implement. There's really no massive upfront investment at all. There's no upfront investment really. It's interesting because a lot of people look for kind of that golden nugget, that elusive thing. A lot of times people are talking about AI now and there's big dollar solutions out there and people are really contemplating spending the money. This is something you don't need to spend a lot of money on at all, nothing upfront. And look, everyone has, I think you guys probably know the ADA says the average office has a half a million to a million dollars of unscheduled treatment. If you were able to, easily..
Dr. John Meis (20:35.944)
easy. Yeah, see practice with 10, 15, 20 million dollars.
Jay (20:42.522)
I know. So imagine what we always say is 30%. Take that, whatever that number is. And we deal with some, we work with some groups that are 500 offices. So you can imagine like the amount of unscheduled treatment, hundreds of millions. mean, if you were able to take 31 % of that unscheduled treatment off that column and put it in the revenue column, is that a substantial number for you? Now, most people would say yes and they would sign on the dotted line immediately. But that's the impact that we can have.
Again, we need support from the corporate or the individual office. need to be approved, know, offering it to patients. But we know that when you offer it, nine out of 10 are going to be approved. So it's pretty much a fairly easy solution to drive more revenue and make patients happier. And by the way, make your staff happier as well. What staff doesn't like to see their patients, who obviously a lot of them know them for years and years, actually get access to care and the treatment that they need? It's a win.
Dr. John Meis (21:47.951)
Yep. Yeah, for sure. We teach a system where we connect with patients who don't accept care initially, and we contact them at regular intervals. And I'm thinking this is just such a great thing. You're mentioning, put that on the text, that we have payment options. We should add that to the system because that is awesome. Yeah, it's so easy.
Jay (22:13.146)
It's so easy. It's so easy. Yeah.
Wendy Briggs (22:15.114)
Yeah, it's interesting Jay. I've got to give you a little bit of insight, right? know Sunbit works outside of the dental space, right? You're also in the vet space. So my son and I have four grandkids. Those that have listened for awhile probably know that, but I also have some grand dogs, right? And just a few days ago, two of those grand dogs had a disagreement which ended up with one of them needing sedation and stitches, right? And yeah, stressful, incredibly stressful time.
Jay (22:41.485)
My gosh.
Dr. John Meis (22:44.834)
Had a disagreement. Love it.
Wendy Briggs (22:45.613)
But right, you're fighting over something really pivotal like bones, right? That's what happens. But what, you know, not having, most people don't have, you know, the level of, I guess, savings that sometimes an unforeseen veterinary visit will require. And just as you mentioned, when they scheduled that, they basically called the emergency vet place, they sent them a link as they were driving to the vet to apply for Sunbit financing to have their dog taken care of. That's awesome, I mean, it's interesting. People are interested, right? Because some people are like, I'll do whatever it takes if Fido's involved, but they'll delay their own care for years, right? It's fascinating.
Dr. John Meis (23:20.686)
Brilliant. Brilliant.
Jay (23:31.234)
Of course.
Dr. John Meis (23:33.336)
Yes.
Jay (23:34.178)
It's amazing. It's amazing. We see it all the time. We see it all the time. It's amazing.
Wendy Briggs (23:40.014)
But again, the reasoning or the emotional connection is the same, right? I mean, they need care. They don't have the revenue or the money sitting around. Or like you said, they want to keep more of their own because they're unsure. So if they can finance it and it's good terms, they're willing to do that. And I love how they preempted the need or the stress. And because they had that on their way, the stress was instantly reduced.
You know, just from that alone, John, if you think about, okay, unscheduled treatment plan, also just reducing anxiety, how many patients when they call ask us about payment options, right? That still happens even now. So I think there's a lot of things. My takeaway from this discussion here, Jay, is that I think we in dentistry could be a lot more creative in how we use outside financing and Sunbit. And certainly now that things have gotten so much easier, I remember the days we used to give patients a brochure and hope that they'd call, right?
Dr. John Meis (24:39.864)
Yeah, yeah, take this home, fill it out, fax it into us. Jeez.
Jay (24:45.21)
Correct.
Wendy Briggs (24:45.39)
And so in today's world, there's really no excuse and no reason for us not to be leveraging the benefits that these plans can afford the practice. So honestly, think, hopefully our listeners, they've gotten some ideas on how they could use outside financing differently, more effectively. And certainly I've loved learning about how you're using AI to basically approve more people. I think that's wonderful.
Jay (25:10.938)
Thank you. Yeah, it's, it's interesting times. And at the end of the day, the more people we can help, the more we further the dental industry. And that's what we want to do. We want to help 10 million people by 2030. And we're going to get there.
Dr. John Meis (25:11.054)
Yeah.
Dr. John Meis (25:27.246)
Yeah, that is awesome. And just think about healthier mouths, healthier lives, healthier people, happier people. All right, Jay, well, thank you so much for being our guest. And that's it for this episode of The Double Your Production Podcast. We'll see you all next time.
Jay (25:35.254)
Absolutely.
Jay (25:47.065)
Thanks for having me.
Wendy Briggs (25:47.118)
Thanks everybody.
Dr. John Meis (25:48.419)
Thanks for being here.
